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Anonymous User
dribble drive for high school basketball
August 12, 2008 11:23PM
Is DDM really a good offense for high school basketball? I know everyone is crazy about it right now, I just have a hard time changing to a offense that doesnt utilize screens, and the post plays opposite ball side. maybe it is the next big thing in bball, its just hard to move away from the things coaches have been preaching for years.
rjr33
Re: dribble drive for high school basketball
August 12, 2008 11:37PM
Change is inevitable. John Calipari revamped his offense while revamping his career. We've run the princeton offense for about 5 years until last year. Our post player who could shoot went down with a career ending injury. We were an average varsity boys basketball team. We decided after Christmas to look for something different. We went with the DDM through Herb Wellings DVD's. We won 8 of our last 10 games and had the first winning season in four years. Is it hard to adjust? Yes. But for our players, they loved it. I'm a true believer in this offense. You must still have talent but I love of because of its simplicity. It's a great offense for a great post player and it's a great offense for a bad post player. I also have to point out that it was easy to implement the basics of this offense. Two practices and our (avg. basketball IQ) kids had it.
FlexOff
Re: dribble drive for high school basketball
August 20, 2008 08:07PM
I think the problem with coaching is most coaches are scared of something new. How many coaches have you seen with their offense or plays that they use every year. Then the year they don't have players they're losing. The DDM and its drills, if done everyday will improve your players. If you have that big kid with no foot work or back to the basket moves, its great. He's out of the way, and all he has to do is make lay ups or put backs. Similar to rjr33, this season my middle school team had 2 bigs. A 6'4 230lb 7th grader and a 6'4 160lb 8th grader. The 8th grader never played organized basketball in his life. After 2 games I kicked the 7th grader off the team and only was left with the 8th grader and another husky 6'0er. By the end of the season we wer3 12-3 and lost in the city final four. My 8th grader had 4 high schools that wanted him because he could catch, finish, rebound and defend. He averaged 10ppg, because I had great penetrators and they made him look great.

I also coach college and I see these high school teams running hi/lo and 3 out/ 2 in with a pair of 6'4 kids. Those kids are usually good athletes with no skill because the coach is hell bent on that pound it down low, 3 yards and a cloud of dust. So the coach wins the league, 20 games and the kid gets a first class ticket to D3. With DDM and the drills, the kids get better, and ultimately expand their games. So in the end, the 6'4 freshman with athleticism in the paint, becomes the 6'5 senior with perimeter skills and a D2 or D1 offer.

After all, coaching is about the kids
rjr33
Re: dribble drive for high school basketball
August 21, 2008 01:03AM
Flexoff,

I couldn't have said it better.
JohnCarrier
Re: dribble drive for high school basketball
September 01, 2008 01:28AM
FlexOff makes some good points, but I think the door swings both ways with coaches and new things in basketball. Along with the ones that never change there are also the ones that adpot EVERY SINGLE NEW THING that comes along. They run the high ballscreen offense that is cool one year, ran the DDM motion last year, and now this year they are going to run the Read and React offense. They change every year and their program (if in HS) lacks continuity from year to year. Each year kids are learning a bran new scheme that might end up changing the next year. I think as a coach you have to find a middle ground. You have to find something you believe in and then add good ideas to it that you steal from others. For example, I LOVE the 4 out, but after watching DVDs by guys like Herb Welling, I've definitely adopted and added some ideas from the drive and kick scheme into my motion, you would be crazy not to IMHO.
But at the same time, my personal philsophy is that you can have success with a lot of different systems as long as you work hard to have skilled, fundamentally sound basketball players and believe in what you are doing. So that philsophy might have something to do with my ideas, in terms of change. I'm not saying it's WRONG to change philsophies from time to time when you find something you like, but make sure whatever scheme you adopt reinforces your philsophies as a coach.

Just my opinion,

John Carrier
ucc
Re: dribble drive for high school basketball
September 02, 2008 07:40AM
Is the DDM a good offense for high school basketball? The exact same question can be asked (and answered) about Motion, Flex, Swing, Triangle, Princeton, etc. etc. It depends on your ability to teach the offense and more importantly on your personnel. If you have the necessary personnel and can teach it, then it's a great offense.If one of those pieces is missing then it's not a good offense. Why is it that Georgetown could get to the Final Four running the Princeton offense but Princeton never could?

John Calipari revamped his career at the college level where he could recruit players over a couple of seasons to fit his offense. I don't think he would have the same type of success running the DDM at a rural high school in Idaho where his best ball handler is also his only shooter and is joined on the court by two offensive tackles, a soccer player, and a left handed shortstop. Granted, running the DDM might help raise the skill levels of each of these players but is it going to give them the best chance to be successful as a team? It's little consolation to say "Yes, I know we didn't win a single game, but you all improved individually and that will really come in handy when you play city league next year." I think we need to try and help them be successfull as a team first. Statistics show that less than 1% of high school players will ever play D1 and those numbers aren't going to change even if everyone in the country starts running the DDM. Winning 20 games and the league championship is a great thing - especially for the 99% that aren't going D1.

The DDM is a great offense for some teams but not a great offense for all teams.
rjr33
Re: dribble drive for high school basketball
September 02, 2008 08:08PM
UCC,
You have some valid points. But, it also sounds like you don't like the DDM. What is it that you run?
coach bo
Re: dribble drive for high school basketball
September 02, 2008 11:54PM
ucc,
My favorite part of your post was how you said its more important to win games than develop players. you might not win right away but if you keep developing players you will win in bunches. My first year running this offense we won five games partly because i didnt do the greatest job with reads and adjustments and my defense really didnt work well with the offensive phil. but i had one kid for play d3 and the next year we had the first winning season in fifiteen years at the school, that year i had two kids get d2 offers and this was not a basketball school or community for that matter. I hope there are a bunch of coaches that feel the way you do because i would hate to coach against the DDM.
ucc
Re: dribble drive for high school basketball
September 03, 2008 12:14AM
It's not that I don't like the DDM - it's just that I don't think it's for everybody. We run 5 man passing game - pass and screen away, any time you're overplayed (switches) you back cut, if you can score in the post then break to the block from the weakside, and a few other rules/guidelines. When my teams are more athletic we can still drive and attack the basket. When we're not as athletic we come off double staggered screens really well. If I happen to have a great post player, and we've had a few, we can emphasize flashing to the ball more and posting up.

The important thing to me is that I can run the exact same offense every year yet emphasize different aspects of it when I need to because of my personnell. I have penetration, post play, back cuts, and coming off screens. If I'm running the DDM I can't jam it inside to my post player and I can't get my slow but deadly shooter open unless I have a great penetrator. What I do, in my situation, gives me more options.

If I knew I was going to have great athletes every year I would consider the DDM - but that's not going to happen often enough for me to completely change what I'm doing now. Like I said, I think the DDM is a great offense, it's just not for everybody.
rjr33
Re: dribble drive for high school basketball
September 03, 2008 12:28AM
So ucc,

When you say 5 man passing game, you mean open post correct? I like this offense as well. Prior to changing to the DDM, we ran the Princeton Offense for 5 previous years. I liked it, but I thought that my kids had a hard to reading the different options in the offense. I like the DDM because it is very simple.
FlexOff
Re: dribble drive for high school basketball
September 03, 2008 01:06AM
I don't think any offense will be successfull without good players. And the better the players, the better the offense. There is a big difference between the Princeton Offense Coach C ran at Princeton, and the concepts of the offense Byron Scott ran with the Nets. It looked great because you got these wonderful concepts coupled with Kidd, RJ, Martin, and Kittles. However, it takes knowledge in order to be great at getting your guys to execute.

Your right 1% of high school kids do go D1, but lets not forget there's also D2 and NAIA which also offer scholarships, and D3. My philosophy is simple, "You win high school games with college basketball players." Simply put, if I develop my players to reach that next level, we're winning in high school anyway. Here in NJ St. Anthony's won the Mythical National Championship, they ran DDM with a starting line up of 5'11, 6'2, 6'3, 6'5 and 6'6. 4 of the five starters and 2 players off the bench were D1 players, and the 6'5 kid is a top 20 recruit right now. So it is no wonder why there DDM led to a 32-0 record. They played high school ball with college players.

The reality is simple. Most coaches would rather win then develop players. When you win a league title and 20 games what does that do for that 6'5 center on your team who has dreams of basketball, but he's stuck in the paint of that successful high/low. I tell you, nothing. 20 years from now, he'll be paying off student loans and the coach will be smiling at his wall with his 400 wins.

Coaching is about the kids. When I retire, you can keep the plaque with the wins on it. Give me a banquet with all my former players who made it or didn't make it to college basketball, because we won anyway, and they're thankful they had the chance to develop into player, as opposed to a kid running plays. DDM and the drills do that, believe me i've seen it first hand.

But then again, less than 1% of high school coaches move on to the college level. Don't tell Tubby Smith, Bo Ryan, or Vance Walberg that though.
FlexOff
Re: dribble drive for high school basketball
September 03, 2008 01:18AM
UCC,

Let me tell you about the DDM (believe me i'm no Walberg). The offense is as normal as any other. There is a base and then there are reads. I ran flex for years. We had a pattern, then we had options. DDM is not about great athletes. If you did the research, you'd see that Walberg in his last 10 years of high school went 292-29, with only 3 D1 players in his 24 years at the high school level. And the year he installed it, he had 2 of those D1 players.

You run the open post, i'm sure you teach screen and slip or pop. I'm sure you teach curl, pop and fade. Well in DDM, you teach Rack, Drag and Drop. If you can't get to the basket, you'd focus more on the drop options, and take advantage of the defense (ie; backdoor-overplay, straight cut-sagging). If you get to the drag zone, read the help (corner help-kick up, post-lob, post w/ weakside rotation-kick opposite). The offense is basically organized drives. I call it a Man/Zone offense, because much like in Zone O, your players are positioned based on the ball location. Well the same holds true with DDM.

I've run 4 out/1 in, Flex, and now DDM, there is no comparison in my mind. If you can't imagine the reads and the freedom and growth in your players, this is not the offense for you. Anyone will tell you that has the Walberg DVDs, watch the game footage, and look at his players at the JUCO he's coaching, they're nothing special.

Coach Bo, share the coaching notes from Tunica, and i'll share mine when he comes to NJ.
jsalt3
Re: dribble drive for high school basketball
September 03, 2008 02:27AM
Anyone have any info, explanations, videos for the DDM breakdown drills like Blood, cardinal and scramble?

Thanks guys!
ucc
Re: dribble drive for high school basketball
September 03, 2008 03:53AM
FlexOff,
Like I've said a few times already, even though I don't completely understand the DDM I'm sure it's a great offense - just not necessarily for everybody.

Wahlberg had success in high school and at Fresno CC but not at Pepperdine. Why? Did he teach it any differently or was it matter of personnell? Would he have been better off running something else with the personell he had?

It's easy to say that coaching is strictly for the kids, but that is not entirely true. If it were, you would play all of your kids equal minutes in every game. That way each of them would have the exact same opportunity to develop their games and to be seen/recruited by colleges at every level. Running the DDM and its drills only in practice is not going to help them completely develop unless they see game action. If the score is tied with 3 minutes left and your 12th guy hasn't played yet, do you go for the win, or do you put the kid first and let him play. If you let him play, he would have a great story to tell at the banquet, but I don't think that would ever happen.

You mentioned Tubby Smith and Bo Ryan - neither of them run anything close to the DDM. Neither does Roy Williams, Ben Howland, Coach K, Bill Self, Pat Summitt, Geno Auriemma, Tara Vander Veer, Phil Jackson, Doc Rivers or any team I saw in the Olympics. The DDM is a great offense but obviously not for everyone or for every team.
FlexOff
Re: dribble drive for high school basketball
September 04, 2008 02:20AM
UCC,

You make some good points. Tubby Smith and Bo Ryan as well as Pete Carill are all coaches who started at the high school level and found success there. Ryan and Carill happend to create their offenses (Swing and Princeton) at that level before moving to the college ranks.

Equal opportunity is made at practice. Not in the game, and hell yeah, if I had 10 guys that were equally talented i'd play all 10. You obviously haven't read or researched this offense at all. If you had you'd know that....
1. Most of the actions are based on the European Drive and Kick, which is the offense that both Duke and Mike D'Antoni use. So believe me, you saw it in the Olympics.

2. If you read the Sports Illustrated article, which you can read on the web, you will read where Doc Rivers talks about how he has implemented parts of the offense into their attack and has had info faxed to him from Walberg.

3. The high school national champ (St. Anthony's), the college runner-up (Memphis) and the NBA Champs (Celtics) All run parts, most or all of it, and that's in the SI article.

We're all aloud to have an opinion, and if I was a control freak scared to open my mind to player development and new ideas, I would have run the flex just as it looks. However, player development is important to me, and watching a kid move from a 3 or 4 to a 7 or 8 always makes me feel better than winning. Take a look at Coach Knight's legacy, his best players always seem to go from 8-10 ppg to 17-20, why is that? Certainly not the passing game motion, player development, that's how.

DDM isn't for everyone, but do your research, email Coach Walberg, and make an informed decision. Or don't. I was skeptical last August. Then I went to a clinic with Coach Cal, bought Welling's dvd, spoke to some of the people in the SI article, gathered thousands of pages of notes, some Fresno game film, talked to some more coaches, and was sold. Maybe you should do that too. I also spoke to the staff of both BC's men's and women's team, and various other coaches, bought video on the market of the Flex and gathered all the notes as well. I'm a junkie, but I love it enough to do the research.
ucc
Re: dribble drive for high school basketball
September 04, 2008 07:33PM
FlexOff,
Your last post is exactly what I have been trying to say all along and maybe I've just been hung up on semantics. To me, the DDM is Vance Wahlberg's offense that Memphis now runs exclusively.That is NOT the same offense that the Celtics, Suns, Olympics, Duke, etc all run. They run PARTS of that offense and have tweaked other parts - Duke uses a high pick, Celtics don't run it very often when Kevin Garnett's in the game. Spain didn't run anything close it when both Gasol brothers were playing at the same time. Each of those teams have taken concepts from the Wahlberg/Calipari DDM and have adapted it based on their PERSONNELL. If it is the be all, end all, greatest offense in the history of basketball why are some very smart and successfull coaches choosing not to run it EXACTLY the way Wahlberg invented it?

My very first post on this thread said that I thought the DDM (as well as many other offenses) is a great offense if you can teach it well and have the personell to run it effectively. And I have to think that Doc Rivers would agree with me. If not, why does he not run it very often with Garnett in the game and instead choose to run his offense through Garnett located somewhere in the post? Why does Coach K use an initial high pick? Because they felt the need to adapt the offensive concepts to their personell, which is exactly what I said in the first place.

If you are talking about using some of the concepts found in the DDM to adapt to your offense and to make your players better, then I agree with you 100% But the "original" DDM itself is a very specific offense out of a very specific 2-3 set. Rick Torbett's Read & React claims those principles can be run out of 4out1in, 3out 2in, and 5 out. Wahlberg's DDM does not make the same claim.

Anyway, I've appreciated the discussion. It has certainly made me think and rethink about some of the things I do. I am going to take your advice and really research the offense. If nothing else it hopefully will give me some understanding how to defend it since I'm sure I will see it several times next season.
Coach Y
Re: dribble drive for high school basketball
September 29, 2008 08:19PM
Where can you get game footage of teams running dribble drive?
supercoach
Re: dribble drive for high school basketball
May 28, 2009 02:57PM
Ok the dribble drive offense depends on the type of players you have, this offense works a lot better with a smaller lineup rather then 2 bigs in there, but every offense depends on the type of players you have. for instance we ran the triangle but we didnt have anyone over 6 3 so the triangle was kind of useless because its designed for a big man, but i did like the dribble drive it creates a lot of scoring possibilities for everyone
DG
Re: dribble drive for high school basketball
May 28, 2009 06:20PM
I have a question for those of you that have run DDM. Did you also use it against zones and if so how well did it work and did you have to make any adjustments?
Anonymous User
Re: dribble drive for high school basketball
May 30, 2009 11:26PM
Are biggest problem when running DDM/DDA is when the teams switch.

What do you do?

Only thing I have heard is use positive passes. We do that is there anything else out there to do?
FlexOff
Re: dribble drive for high school basketball
June 18, 2009 12:17AM
I run AASAA/DDM, and we run Coach K's zone motion "Gaps" against zones, out of the dribble drive spots. We just attack gaps, get two on the ball and kick. Or we swing it and try to get the post off a seal or flash from the opposite wing. Nothing monumental. We run a few quick hitters out of the spots as well.

As for switching defenses. We use cutters. Alot of 415 or cutting the opposite guard to the ball side corner and opening a triple gap.
lhsbca
Re: dribble drive for high school basketball
June 18, 2009 06:15AM
Coach do you think the ddm would be a good off to establish as your programs base offense? Secon question my thought is to run the flex s a control offense for when teams sag and/or we ae not being patient in ddm. The thing that concerns me about the ddm is a lack of screens what is your feeling on that and also what happens when you pla a more talented and athletic team and you cannot penetrate?
FlexOff
Re: dribble drive for high school basketball
June 19, 2009 02:09AM
You can use the base for sure. You can add screen plays or cuts and ball swings to get movement and create patience.

Against more talented teams, we run entries to create closeouts. Once you get penetration, the offense makes the more talented teams pay for their aggressiveness.
coachj444
Re: dribble drive for high school basketball
July 01, 2009 06:17PM
Flexoff could you please e-mail me. I would like to ask you a couple questions about the DDM and your experiences with it. Thanks

joeyc20@hotmail.com
Old School
Re: dribble drive for high school basketball
January 16, 2010 05:34PM
Is the dribble-drive good for high school? Only if you have the right PERSONNEL to run it. Many good high school coaches base their offense on personnel, and don't necessarily run the same thing every year. College coaches can recruit the players they need. So really, for high school, it completely depends on the skills of the players. High school coachesneed much flexibility, knowledge, and ingenuity!!!! They must use the players they have in the best way they can.
Coach Daye
Re: dribble drive for high school basketball
January 17, 2010 02:15PM
Old School Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Is the dribble-drive good for high school? Only if
> you have the right PERSONNEL to run it. Many good
> high school coaches base their offense on
> personnel, and don't necessarily run the same
> thing every year. College coaches can recruit the
> players they need. So really, for high school, it
> completely depends on the skills of the players.
> High school coachesneed much flexibility,
> knowledge, and ingenuity!!!! They must use the
> players they have in the best way they can.

Many great high school programs use their coaches & feeder programs (middle school, freshman, jv) to groom and create the sort of athletes they want to run their stuff. Coaches and programs with this much control can mold the talent and attributes they inherit to fit roles and skill types they need to execute the system they want in institute year after year.

Ironically enough, there are now debates about high schools like Yates in texas who have gotten athletes to fit a style, trained their athletes gifts to maximize their ability, and play the way that bet suits their gifts. They create not only great programs but great talent, only to be so good that people complain that they should work on multiple systems and stuff so that the scores are more balanced.
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